An interview with Josh Rosen, CMT, a New York Stock Exchange Specialist with Kellogg Group, conducted by Molly Schilling.
We continue our conversation with Josh Rosen, a Specialist on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. We are at the famous Bobby Van Restaurant on Wall Street.
Molly Schilling: What do you think of the proposed merger between The New York Stock Exchange and Euronext?
Josh Rosen: You know I have to say this, I’m still wrapping my arms around hybrid and the new technological advances at The New York Stock Exchange. John Thain came in here, and I don’t know if he was always a fan of the listed marketplace, but I do know that he has become a huge proponent of it now. Here’s a guy coming in from Goldman Sacks, takes a look and says I’m a technology guy. And then after actually seeing the type of price discovery that we do he becomes a huge proponent of specialists in the marketplace — so that’s a big nod for us.
MS: Just unwind that a little bit more… what does that mean? What does he see now that he didn’t see before?
JR: I think he got to see what the specialists and the brokerage community could add… And what they can add is huge value — value to institutions (buy side and sell side), value to the retail customer… And what the specialist can do as far as adding liquidity and depth to the marketplace, and removing unnecessary volatility. And I think he became a huge proponent of the marketplace because of that.
That being said, we have begun to develop an incredible hybrid market system, that’s going to be a huge technological advance for the industry. It’s going to add speed to the marketplace, which is what everybody is looking for — but it won’t take away the human element and the value-added.
As far as the merger – I don’t know. I mean, I’ve read some stories in a few magazines, I’ve listened to some people — and I don’t know what to think about it right now. I know that Euronext is technologically advanced. I would hope that any merger is a coming together of synergies, where you take the best from both worlds and you can create a new platform where both sides can grow together. I would hope that that’s what mergers are all about in the end, and I would hope that that’s what’s behind John Thain’s thinking and The New York Stock Exchange’s thinking as well.
That being said, I don’t know. There are a lot of questions about market structure, there have been for years. We’re seeing things happen in the markets that are unprecedented – mergers across continents, across functions. This is a big business now, and I absolutely have to keep on top of what’s going on, but I’m waiting for more information to unfold before I have any major opinions on what’s going on.
There are two schools of thought – one says, people have been talking about the end of this institution since 1920, and “It’s not like the old days”… but here we still are! And then there’s the other school of thought that says “maybe we’re just out of our element…” Maybe technology is going to come around and take over, and the person won’t be as integral as they once were on the floor. Maybe there’s a mix, but I don’t know right now.
But I do know that I enjoy the markets, and I will always be involved, regardless of the platform. But computers as such, still need to be programmed — and I think that if there was an incredible electronic computerized trading system out there, there would be quite a few more billionaires. There is still a need for the market to be handled by human beings with ideas, analysis and trading acumen.
MS: So you will always need people behind the computers…
JR: Absolutely.
MS: …Or with the computers.
JR: Right, it speaks to accountability. And that’s a huge thing on the floor of The New York Stock Exchange. When I trade down there I’m accountable to The New York Stock Exchange, it’s rules and constitution. I’m accountable to the rules of the SEC, 1933/1934, any amendments. I’m accountable to my specialist firm in particular and what they deem fair and orderly. I’m accountable to the companies that have entrusted us with listing their issues, their stocks. And most importantly, I’m accountable to the shareholders. At any point one of those CEOs could call me up, I have a relationship with them; our upstairs communication has a relationship with them. And I have to have a reason for what I think happened.
Not everything is always going to be wonderful and rosy, but they can at least call me and say “hey, why did this happen?” — At least I can have a dialogue and let them know what I’m seeing at the point of sale. You know, there’s accountability no matter what I do, and once again that goes back to a measure of our integrity and our character. I don’t know how many people understand this. Everything we do in that machine is monitored electronically via some very advanced technology, surveillance. At this point on the floor a lot of things are becoming monitored via video and recording. We are not for the most part doing anything that we shouldn’t… we simply can’t, and I’ll tell you why, (a) it’s technologically impossible, and (b) you have to absolutely go out of your way to do it and be the type of person that would to that. We don’t have a lot of those people; we are monitored, and there’s surveillance to make sure that we do our job and we do it correctly.
MS: Let’s go back to your day — so we can just get a little more feeling for who you are and what your life is like. You wake up at six and you’re on the computer for a while and then you take off on a subway…What time do you get into work?
JR: I get in about 7:00, 7:15.
MS: What do you do at 7:00, 7:15 in the morning, since the market doesn’t open until 9:30.
JR: I’m on the computers; mail, of course — clean that out; various news services, I look at about four or five.
MS: What are your favorite news services?
JR: I look at Market Watch, Yahoo!; I look at Market Center, Big Charts, Stock Charts, Reuters, and a couple more — I try to get the flavor – I flip around quite a bit. I often read some online stuff from Barrons.
I also look at technical sites, some blogs, some Elliott sites, just to get a feel for what other analysts are thinking. I try to read as many CMTs as I can in the morning and I do get a little research from some of the sell side firms as well, to try to get a feel for their analysis. So I have quite a bit of reading to do in the morning.
MS: …And where do you get your coffee?
JR: Right there at work. We have a beautiful office. We’re actually at the Kellogg Group, I’m a Kellogg specialist, and we have quite a growing operation, we have an upstairs trading department including various strategies, the brokerage side for direct access, and specialists on the floor of The American Stock Exchange as well as the NYSE.
MS: So, where is Kellogg, is it right in the building, The New York Stock Exchange building?
JR: No, but we’re in a building right near the Exchange. I go there first in the morning, grab my coffee, go back into the specialists’ room where we’re all doing research, recapping and getting ready.
MS: So you chat away with your colleagues at that point?
JR: Oh, yes, there’s a lot of talking. We have CNBC on, or Bloomberg, so we have everything. And those couple of hours before the market opens goes by a lot quicker than you might think. There are a lot of meetings going on, plenty of research happening, and a lot of reading. I do a lot of analysis, still, in the morning, anything I didn’t get done the night before. I’m always bringing more analysis down to the floor with me, so I’m working on that until the last minute as well. And I usually have a little breakfast with my coffee.
MS: Is it good coffee… Starbuck’s coffee?
JR: No, we actually have our own special machine, the “Pod”. So I use the Pod machine. Some people stop for breakfast in the morning, some guys go out for breakfast together. I’m usually in the office, I have a little breakfast — oatmeal or something, and we have it right there while we’re doing our work. And from there little by little everybody moves on down to the floor. Some guys get down there very early — start standing around, looking at the early interest on the display book. Some guys get down there just a few minutes before. I tend to be in the middle — I usually look at my watch at about 9:05/9:09 and start my walk down to the floor, outside, into the NYSE, through all the security, onto the floor. Put my stuff away, get my badge on, take a look around, see if the futures have moved at all, take a look at my trading assistant — I’ll immediately know if there’s anything I should know about.
I’ve already checked all the news in my stocks, so there should be no surprises. Of course, you never know what the early interest on the floor has to offer. So he could tell me – hey, just so you know, get ready, we have 50,000 to buy in XYZ, or something. I have my badge on, said good morning to everyone….
MS: Do you wear anything in particular, or do you just wear a suit?
JR: I happen to wear my suit. You can wear a smock, I have a smock. I used to wear it a lot, I don’t anymore. I put my badge right here on my left lapel, that gives them my badge number, my name, my firm. And after that I pretty much turn around, get in position, start looking at my screens, seeing what type of orders are flowing, recap whatever positions I have from overnight, look at what sectors are moving, and I get ready for the bell at 9:30.
At that point it’s a mad dash to get all the stocks open. We give out whatever looks we need to certain brokers that are giving looks for institution and retail clients; putting up interested buyers and sellers from the previous week/or the previous day that might be interested in a market moving event, or market moving trade. And I’ll have a conversation with my trading assistant for our overall game plan for the day. Usually it goes something like this: Way up at this level I think you can see some resistance for a break-out; way down at this level I think we can see some support, otherwise, let’s just trade. And let’s try to stay away from any major opinions. So he knows where my mind is, and I know where his head is. Do we always agree 100%?. Absolutely not. Do we have absolute respect for each other? Yes. He’s got a great feel for what’s going on. Like I said, yesterday I walked away. It wasn’t extremely busy yesterday, it was a very quiet day, and I lost my feel for it and I just couldn’t get back on track.
MS: …On another note, you enjoy reading the magazine, The Economist, so you’re obviously inclined toward political philosophy. What else do you read? What else do you like? …Any books that you’ve found to be useful in your work?
JR: I can give you quite a few books that I’ve loved. An incredible book that contains economic analysis, technical analysis and the psychology of trading all in one was written by Vic Sperandeo called Trader Vic. Jack Schwager has written Market Wizards, which really gives you a keen insight into what some of the top market performers have done over the years.
Let me think – Investment Psychology Explained, by Martin Pring– I really love how he delves into human psychology. Steve Nison and John Murphy’s books introduced me to technical analysis. And Bob Prechter’s books are very helpful… that goes without saying.
I just read a book called Fooled By Randomness by a man named Nassim Taleb, who explains derivatives. Barton Biggs opens up the world of hedge funds in Hedge Hogging. I think he uncovers a side of the market a lot of people just don’t know about. He focuses on personalities through anecdotes.
Against The Gods is a financial book by Peter Bernstein that really uncovers the mathematics of trading.
MS: …Anything in philosophy or ethical/moral reflection?
JR: I especially like the works of Ayn Rand. One of my favorite books altogether is Atlas Shrugged. And I just recently read The Virtue of Selfishness. I love the philosophy of economics — I was a finance major in college. I later studied psychology and philosophy, so I’ve read a lot of philosophy — from Aristotle to Kant. I’m always thinking about ethics. I read The Tipping Point recently, and it was a really illuminating book. It really challenged my perspectives.
MS: Did your background in philosophy help you as a trader? Has it influenced you?
JR: Absolutely, it’s opened me up to a myriad of different thought processes. And it’s opened me up to be able to understand how two totally different thought processes can work – reflective thinking and strategic thinking. You can approach the market philosophically from an economics standpoint, a fundamental standpoint, a technical standpoint, or a quantitative standpoint, as long as you have something to back up those ideas. You can be successful by adding a psychological aspect to it by understanding who you are, what is energizing you to apply these different philosophies — and then thinking about how you are going to react when you’re wrong, when you’re right, when you’re profitable, when you’re losing – and what that does to you emotionally. If you don’t cultivate the ability to adapt, and overcome, and change, then I don’t think you can be successful.
MS: Who was your favorite philosopher when you were studying philosophy?
JR: The ancient Greek philosophers – Plato and Aristotle. I loved their ability to argue. What I learned is that many ideas can be argued very well and you have to be able to dissect them and take out of them what is true to you, and maybe not take out of them what doesn’t necessarily rhyme with what you believe. So, what I took out of them was their ability to argue either side and to really dissect what someone else is saying, rather than just take it at face value. And that takes a lot of discipline.
MS: …And what do you do for fun, or is this fun for you?
JR: This is fun for me. I do this for fun. I also spend a lot of time with my wife. We love to just take walks, go out for dinner, travel — that’s awesome, so that’s a lot of fun for me. I love playing golf. I’m really a student of the game. I think there are a lot of parallels with the market. It takes so many different speeds to play that game right, as well as emotional discipline. So, I really love that. I love getting better at it, of course, like a lot of people do.
I’m a huge exerciser, I love to ride my bike. And I do study a certain form of martial arts a couple of nights a week. So I stay very active, spend a lot of time with my family, study the markets, and travel. Those are some of the things off the top of my head that I really enjoy, and I do love reading – reading about whatever. I love non-fiction, I love learning about new cultures and ideas. So that’s how I keep myself busy for the most part.
MS: Great. Josh, what a wonderful interview — thank you very much.