An Interview with Josh Rosen, CMT, a New York Stock Exchange Specialist with Kellogg Group, conducted by Molly Schilling.
NOTE: This interview will be printed in two parts in the September and October issues of Technically Speaking. Josh Rosen blogs daily at TheTrendline.blogspot.com.
Molly Schilling: So, Josh, here we are at the famous Bobby Van Restaurant on Wall Street after a difficult trading day (June 22, 2006). You work as a Specialist on the floor at the New York Stock Exchange — what a challenging job…What was it like today?
Josh Rosen: It was very interesting today – it seems that a lot of things are shifting right now in the market in general…Old adages aren’t necessarily working…The summer market was supposed to slow up — light trading and low volatility — we’ve seen low volatility in the summer for the past three years.
But, all of a sudden, we have a situation where the VIX is starting to pop up to its highest levels since 2003. And then we have a day like yesterday– I think it was five-to-one volume and three-to-one on the breadth numbers as far as stocks up versus stocks down. That gives a clear signal to jump on board — but today proved them very wrong.
Volatility is starting to explode. But traditional momentum indicators and oscillators weren’t pointing to that. We’re seeing a different situation — a situation that involves waves of volatility.
MS: A new paradigm?
JR: Yes, a new paradigm. Now I need to be prepared for much more volatility — I need to revisit all of my core ideas because, for example, the volatility necessary to retest those May highswould be explosive — also, the volatility would have to trend to the up-side… and volatility doesn’t tend to explode to the up-side as much as it does to the down-side.
MS: What kind of technical analysis are you using?
JR: I use chart analysis and candlesticks, a couple of different indicators, and I use Elliott Wave Formations — and some days I can’t believe how wonderfully and beautiful everything is working out from a technical viewpoint…
MS: Like a peak experience.
JR: Yes. And then there are other days when I have absolutely no clue as to what’s going on. Nothing seems to work. Luckily, I have incredible people working with me, trading with me. And yesterday was one of those bad days…I just said to myself at one point – “you know what — they got me… I just don’t know today.” And I stepped back — and I’m convinced that it’s important to have the ability within myself to do that.
But when its working, I automatically know where I’m right and where I’m wrong…all the techniques are working, and it’s just a big whammy – I mean, I don’t know how else to put it. There are days like that where it’s just a peak experience — where everything seems to be clicking in a daily framework, a weekly framework and an intermarket framework as well. It’s like everything comes together — all the hard work pays off. Even the intermarket work just makes a lot of sense, interest rate sensitive or not. And then there are those days when its not working – and that’s when you need to step away and say – I just don’t have it right now…being able to do that makes all the difference – ultimately, its not about the days where it’s all going well for you.
It’s when you can’t figure it out, and you can step back – that makes all the difference…and its the hardest thing to do…you’ve done all this hard work; you’ve spent hours and hours researching; you’ve come up with an incredible plan…and it doesn’t work out. How can you justify stepping away from that?
MS: It’s really hard…
JR: Nassim Taleb wrote a book called Fooled By Randomness, in which he says that its easier for a trader to divorce his wife than to divorce a position, and it is. You get married, as it were, to something that you put so much effort and time into… not to mention the ego investment! Psychology really interests me — it’s one of the things I really like to study and learn about when it comes to trading. I’m psychologically motivated; I’m motivated by the philosophy of trading, and the discipline that I think every trader works on for his entire life.
MS: When you get into the idea of the ego and the ego of the trader, is that a personal challenge for you – to understand and work on?
JR: It is. I think that you need to really look at yourself – I mean, everybody wants to say that they’re a disciplined trader who uses their stops and understands when they’re wrong…and looks for places when and where they’re wrong. But I think that over the years I’ve studied myself and how I trade, and I continue to err in the same way I have in the past. Traders are always looking for great reasons to get into something and rarely look for ways to get out – to exit.
Volumes have been written on the subject of ego in trading, but in the end, it seems to be all about experience. When you look at the people that have been in this business for a long time they tend to be people who learn about themselves. Trading will teach you a lot about who you are. I used to think it was devotion to trying to get away from your emotions… But as human beings we’re wired with emotions. So now, I try to understand the emotional aspects – that we are emotional beings – wired to be fearful, even panic-stricken — and understand when that’s happening and be prepared for it. The traders who tend to talk about this are superstar traders — Jim Rogers, George Soros…
MS: …Always working at developing self-understanding, self-control..?
JR: Absolutely.
MS: Interesting…my biggest weakness is patience…
JR: I’m full of good quotes and ideas about the market…You always grab something when you read and it kind of stays with you…And I read once that if you plan to be a market professional or trader for a living, you should expect it to be an extremely boring profession sprinkled with moments of panic.
MS: Moments of panic?
JR: Panic. Now if you explain that to someone in the profession they would say – no way. But this is not a profession of constant activity. What we really should be doing is doing our homework, our research, putting our trades on, understanding our ins and outs, our reasons where we’re wrong…and then we should be going for a nice walk.
MS: Interesting….
JR: And letting what happens happen. But we sit in front of machines constantly and we are constantly driven by what we hear in the media, what we hear by market pundits. You know, there’s nothing worse than being handcuffed to somebody else’s analysis, because you don’t know when they change their mind. You don’t know why they did what they did. You don’t know why they came up with their notions or if and when those are wrong?
So I try to do as much of my own homework as I can, and look at things with as critical an eye as I can. I like to look at analysts that don’t trade at all. Because they’re the first ones to admit that once you start trading a whole new game – many other elements — come into the picture…
MS: So, what is your job really like? What’s a day like…what do you do?…What time do you get up in the morning?
JR: I’m up at 6 a.m. and at Kellogg by 7:15 or 7:30. But I start the previous evening, looking at hundreds of charts – at sectors, at industries. So, when I wake up in the morning I revisit those charts in the morning. I check the news, and I often read a magazine or a book on the way to work. When I get there, I look at plenty of financial websites and world market news on the Internet.
MS: You live and work in New York City, so do you take the train to work?
JR: Yes, the NYC subway.
MS: I noticed that you have The Economist magazine with you…
JR: Yes.
MS: …And that’s a more heady, thoughtful, philosophical kind of –
JR: Absolutely. I really enjoy the editorials in The Economist. It gives a really bipartisan look at the global financial, economic and political markets and interactions. Everybody understands what the motivations of market news can be. It’s extremely scary how you can dissect the headlines, and how there’s so much underneath the headlines…
MS: You mean, they can be trying to force a direction one way or the other.
JR: Absolutely. They’re just so biased that it’s unreadable sometimes.
MS: Interesting…
JR: They come up with reasons for things… and as a technical analyst, I don’t always think those reasons reflect technical, fundamental, or economic sensibilities. I, frankly, enjoy the psychology of the market, and how the individual person is a player in these markets — it’s really not the news but our reaction to the news that moves markets…We’ve all seen how the news can send the market up or down 100 points…its because people always want some kind of a reason – it makes them sleep well at night. And it’s easy to rush to a publication or an internet site and find a reason why, for example, the bond market sold off 20 points…The problem is, that reason often doesn’t make good enough sense.
MS: Right, it doesn’t cloud your –
JR: Well, no, and I also look at it sometimes with just a crooked eye and make sure I know what’s going on, but I also want to take it with a grain of salt.
MS: So, you’re saying that you rely more on the technical reasons for things, rather than the narrative reasons, or storytelling, that newspapers come up with to explain things?
JR: Absolutely. I will take clear price movement any day over a news story. You know, Bob Prechter put out an educational piece on investor perception and news stories. He said “A genie is going to tell you the news for tomorrow, and you get to invest. But you have to hold the position for at least 24 hours once the genie tells you.” Essentially, he shows how people can be scared out of their positions, because most people can’t hold the position for 24 hours. But if you are following technicals, you would be much more apt to hold onto the position in spite of the news.
MS: So if you’d been following the technicals – as opposed to the news headlines –
JR: You wouldn’t necessarily be swayed by somebody’s opinion of the economic condition of the United States of America. I do enjoy reading various economists – if you pay attention to the household, it tends to throw a light on world economy and debt levels. If a household continually gets more credit cards, and keeps borrowing, and borrowing and borrowing, that type of leverage can continue to snowball.
MS: So, you pay attention to the financial ecology out there…
JR: I do — It helps me to know that markets have gone through similar periods in the past and have remained strong. In the end, though, I always look at how price is behaving. The market, itself, will eventually tell me what’s going on… I will let price and momentum and those indicators really steer the ship.
That being said, on a daily basis on the floor — what really steers the ship is order fl ow. As a technical analyst I look at what will happen in the next few days or weeks. As a Specialist – a trader on the floor I look at order flow for each stock as well as the different sectors and industries that my stocks are following.
Down there on the floor, I have the franchise in certain stocks; and my job first and foremost is to create a two-sided market — an auction market — to create a liquid market in the absence of other buyers and sellers, and to cushion the market on the way up by adding liquidity, and on the way down by buying stock. I don’t buy stock on the way up, I don’t sell stock on the way down. I don’t move markets. I bring the buyers and sellers together. I handle institutional and retail order flow for others, and I act as their agent.
One of my most important tasks is being a principal — which means adding capital to the marketplace in the absence of other buyers and sellers — and that happens quite often. We stabilize the market down — buy on the way down, sell on the way up.
How can technical analysis help…or fundamental or economical analysis? It makes us more knowledgeable. If everything that I’m seeing relates to a gold rally, I can prepare myself for a volatile day — more aggressive on the way down with the buying – and in creating long positions going up. I use technical analysis to give me a broad framework of the market, and I let the order flow on the floor tell me what to do.
MS: Now, order fl ow comes to you over a computer…?
JR: Yes…all the volume trades on the floor of The New York Stock Exchange –through brokers who handle large retail and institutional order flow, and through an inter-market trading system with secondary markets. And, through my electronic data display book located at my trading post. My volume tends to relate to overall volume in the market. I’ll know in my fingers whether I’m having a busy or a quiet day…
MS: How is the fl ow back and forth for you between electronic interaction and broker interaction? Does it become confusing?
JR: I work with a trading assistant who is extremely proficient. He can work the electronic book if I’m busy with the brokers. What’s going on in that book? Bids are canceling, offers are coming in, — market orders, limit orders, stop orders. Some of these guys that are down on the floor have been there for five, 10, 15, 20 years, and they don’t miss a beat — listening to everything that’s going on in the crowd, everything that’s hitting the tape, watching everything that is input… Every trade that hits the floor is printed through the display book.
MS: So this is supreme multitasking…
JR: Absolutely. You have to know everything that’s going on around you. You have to hear everything…Because a broker can walk into my area and yell “buy 50,000” of XX. How is that going to happen? It’s going to happen because we are paying attention…But, more importantly, all that means absolutely nothing without the most cardinal rule on the floor which is your word is your bond. You wouldn’t make it if you didn’t play by the rules. If a rumor got out – watch out for this guy – you wouldn’t survive on the floor.
MS: So there’s a lot of trust…
JR: When a broker says he’s buying, and I say that I am selling, and that’s inputted, then we go ahead and input our side, and they input their side, and that should all be meeting up overnight — and that is what we call comparing and clearing. Do miscommunications occasionally happen? Yes, but there’s a big difference between “things happening” and not standing by your word…and that just doesn’t happen on the floor. There’s a lot of integrity on the floor.
There are times when the entire floor is watching…If something is happening, everyone’s going to want to know what’s going on. When huge crowds gather, the big guns step in…people with the respect of the brokerage community. Every specialist firm has qualified people to handle big situations. There’s never a situation where a Specialist gets overwhelmed.
MS: You’re suggesting that there’s a kind of a trusting ethic down there. Is it a good feeling to walk onto the floor in the morning?
JR: I feel good about it; I enjoy what I do. I enjoy studying the markets, I enjoy trading. There are some people on the floor that I absolutely can’t wait to see, to see how their night was and spend some time talking to them, and they’re a joy to be around. Even though I’ve been doing this for a while, I started on the AMEX in 1997, traded there for about three years; traded on The New York for a total of about four years; traded upstairs for a while – I still have been there for just a fraction of the time that a lot of people have been down there.
And like anything else, the more time you spend down there, the more operations you’re involved with, the more situations you’re in, the more you meet people. And I’ve been lucky enough to meet a lot of people. But like I said, especially for the specialists, we stand at a post all day, you don’t move around as much as some of the broker’s community does who’s handling a lot of different orders in a lot of different places. So, I’m sometimes limited to my area.
You know, it’s funny, but there are a lot of rooms on the floor – main rooms, and side rooms, and they’re all doing the same thing, all trading stocks. You could be in the main room for four years and then move into another room, and all of a sudden you see people you haven’t seen for years. So it’s a large community, there are an awful lot of people walking on the floor as far as The New York Stock Exchange surveillance, administration, supervisors, brokers, different specialists and clerks. It’s just like any other major business.
But there is a sense, no matter what, that if a lady or a gentleman walks into your crowd with a badge on and is a licensed holder on the floor of The New York Stock Exchange, there’s no question that they are a person of integrity and the relationship is already bound by that. We’ve been through the same examinations, rigorous examinations, we all understand the rules and regulations, we all understand what it means to bid an offer and to be party to a bound trade, so that’s never a question.
MS: Interesting. So from your experience there’s a very high ethic operating all the time.
JR: Has to be, and I think it’s incredible and it’s wonderful that we get to work in an environment where that’s so prominent. But I think it needs to be in any corporation, in any business. But in our business we have a fail-safe: if you don’t exercise that type of integrity, that type of character then you’ll be found out immediately.
MS: That’s great, so you like your job.
JR: I do, I like trading …
MS: Thanks, Josh, we look forward to continuing this conversation in Part II of our interview with you, next month in Technically Speaking